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The intention of doing these experiments was not to suggest that we
can integrate Saxon with JDOM as a package, we recognize that this
would create questions around the licensing. We were primarily
interested in the performance of JDOM2 compared to JDOM1 using both
the Saxon XPath engine and JDOM's embedded XPath engine. We wanted
to check that we can do JDOM2 as well as JDOM1, and that the
performance we get is acceptable. We thought we'd let you know the
results as they seem to be interesting in the context of the JDOM2
Answer to your questions/comments:<br>
1) I don't think we're interfacing with JDOM at that level - we
don't attempt to make Saxon available using JDOM's APIs, only using
2) Potentially - but I think there could be some difficulties
because of the need to establish a Saxon Configuration. Using Saxon
for individual XPath requests without giving Saxon any context
that's reused across requests would probably perform badly.<br>
3) I confirm the tests on JDOM2 were done using the build after the
17th October, there including the changes made to the Iterator() for
ContentList. The tests confirm the results you had published on <a
4) Whitespace: not sure of the exact details here, but the general
rule for XPath 1.0 is that all whitespace is preserved unless
otherwise specified, whereas in XPath 2.0 it's DTD-sensitive -
whitespace in element-only content gets removed. We could do a
performance comparison that eliminated this potential source of
differences, but I'm not sure we would learn much more from it.<br>
5) I'm not sure this would be productive. Our focus is on running
the W3C XSLT and XQuery test suites and making sure that the results
when JDOM is used underneath match the expected results. (We've
generally only done this for a subset of the tests, and there tend
to be some differences in test results for different tree models,
caused for example because some models don't label nodes as IDs or
IDREFs, some don't expose unparsed entities, etc.)<br>
Mike and O'Neil<br>
On 24/10/11 15:15, Rolf Lear wrote:
<pre wrap="">Hi Michael, O'Neil
I simply have not looked in to Saxon yet, so I have no frame of reference,
and bear with me on that as it will happen at some point...
There is issue #34 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/hunterhacker/jdom/issues/34">https://github.com/hunterhacker/jdom/issues/34</a> to track
XSLTransform which I created in response to your suggestions for Saxon...
and I do keep looking at it.
My overall plan has 'always' been to:
1. build a regression test system (junit testcases).
2. build a performance regression test system (PerfTest)
3. make changes for JDOM2 with confidence.
Having built the 'PerfTest' process I've nailed down some of the
performance regressions I introduced, and followed the 'thread' of changes
in to some other areas. It's a little 'aimless', but the current 'theme' is
This is probably a mistake, I should be looking at 'structure' now that I
have the (restored) performance baseline... but the 'performance' thing is
always good, and I find it fun and challenging.
The code is now 'ripe' for looking at structural changes though.
Still, Saxon concerns me from a JDOM perspective because of the
dual-licensing with the 'restricted' free/open version, and the 'complete'
My personal feel for this sort of situation is that the solution from a
JDOM perspective is to keep the JDOM API open, and to make it possible/easy
to use Saxon, but not to include either version of Saxon as the 'default
engine'. Specifically, I don't see JDOM as being an advertising platform
for some commercial product. I know this sort of issue is
debatable/religious/etc. which is why it's important to understand that I
am willing to defer to Jason's judgment on this one. For what it's worth
the company I work for would would have to implement special protocol
handling for JDOM if it were to bundle the Saxon code.
On the other hand, I really do appreciate your taking the time to look in
to the integration of Saxon and JDOM.
I have some comments/questions/suggestions:
1. I changed the 'implementation' API of the XPath code when I worked on
the jaxen bugs/issues. The intention was to make it easier (than before) to
have other engines (like Saxon). Did this change help you with your tests?
Could it be done better?
2. Is the integration 'glue' something that can be easily put in
3. I implemented new iterator() back-ends for ContentList which are
significantly faster than before in change 41217056 (17th Oct). Is your
test based on JDOM2 from before that? :
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/hunterhacker/jdom/commit/412170566ebdf8449b442e44f12ed8712d447a19">https://github.com/hunterhacker/jdom/commit/412170566ebdf8449b442e44f12ed8712d447a19</a>
Those changes should bring the hamlet.getDescendants() down to about 3ms
4. The 'missing' Text nodes are significant.... I am surprised that they
are absent? What is the logic for skipping them?
5. Which leads to the question: How does the Saxon implementation fare on
the unit tests? Can you create a Saxon version of:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/hunterhacker/jdom/blob/master/test/src/java/org/jdom2/test/cases/xpath/TestLocalJaxenXPath.java">https://github.com/hunterhacker/jdom/blob/master/test/src/java/org/jdom2/test/cases/xpath/TestLocalJaxenXPath.java</a>
The 'snapshot' system I have started on the github pages is not very
useful for figuring out what's in the snapshot, and naming the snapshot. I
should fix that.
But, the 'current' snapshots should have the improved iterator:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://hunterhacker.github.com/jdom/jdom2/snapshot/jdom-2.x-SNAPSHOT.jar">http://hunterhacker.github.com/jdom/jdom2/snapshot/jdom-2.x-SNAPSHOT.jar</a>
It would be better though if you just pulled the latest code though
because there are a couple of other changes that would improve performance
On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:29:22 +0100, Michael Kay <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org"><email@example.com></a> wrote:
<pre wrap="">My colleague O'Neil Delpratt has been doing some performance experiments
<pre wrap="">with JDOM1 and JDOM2. Here are the results he is getting.
Experiment: I ran a somewhat simplified test harness on the same two
XPath expression (i.e. "//@null" and "//node()") on the XML document
Average time taken over 50 runs, excluding the first run.
Saxon (TinyTree treeModel): 2.8ms
Saxon (JDOM treeModel): 10.36ms
Saxon (JDOM2 treeModel): 10.82ms
The # of tree nodes:
Standalone JDOM(-2): 19840
The difference in results was down to whitespace between elements
represented as text nodes in JDOM(-2).
So: JDOM2 is doing a good job relative to JDOM1, but the XPath engine is
<pre wrap="">still very slow compared to Saxon's XPath engine.
The Saxon code for accessing JDOM2 uses the JDOM node.getDescendants()
method rather than making recursive use of getChildren() as we do with
JDOM1, and this benefits performance in that without this change, the
JDOM2 code ran in 12.28ms; but we're still getting slightly slower
results from JDOM2 despite this improvement.
I believe the way the measurements were done causes the XPath expression
<pre wrap="">to be compiled once and executed repeatedly.
The differences we are seeing from these results are:
(a) The TinyTree is very fast when processing the descendant axis
(because the nodes are held in an array in document order)
(b) In the scenario where XPath compile time is amortized over many
executions (the only case we've measured), the Saxon XPath engine is
much faster than the one built in to JDOM.
(c) JDOM2 is fractionally slower than JDOM1 in its navigational APIs,
even though its XPath engine is now three times faster.
To control your jdom-interest membership:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://firstname.lastname@example.org">http://email@example.com</a>
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Tel: +44 118 946 5894<br>
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